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Wednesday, July 23, 2008

Universal Subtitle Format: a post-mortem?

The Universal Subtitle Format (USF) was an ambitious project. It was a XML-based subtitle format, supposed to replace the old and problematic community standard, Advanced Substation Alpha (ASS). It was chosen as the default subtitle format for the Matroska multimedia container, and was the primary format of Medusa's unfortunate successor, ChronoSub.

It failed to achieve that goal.

This is what its page on CoreForge has to say:

The format is based on XML for many reasons: flexibility, human readability, portability, Unicode support, hierarchical system and easier management.
While I can certainly understand "flexibility" and "portability", I don't see why you need XML to have a portable format, or Unicode support. But they go ahead and claim human readability and easier management. Is that supposed to be a joke? It sure is human readable - compared to binary formats. But it's still an incredibly verbose format that no sane person would try to edit by hand. And how is it easier to manage? Only if they mean that it's easier to avoid horribly misshapen subtitle files (you know, the kind of file that's always floating around the community and that VSFilter will happily eat). And what's with "hierarchical system"? It is true, but isn't it also completely irrelevant? Subtitles are NOT intrinsically hierarchical - forcing them to be only complicates matters.

But let's have a look at the format itself. This is a simple "Hello World" in USF:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!-- DOCTYPE USFSubtitles SYSTEM "USFV100.dtd" -->
<?xml-stylesheet type="text/xsl" href="USFV100.xsl"?>

<USFSubtitles version="1.0">

<style name="NarratorSpeaking">
<fontstyle italic="yes" color="#FFEEEE" outline-color="#FF4444"/>

<subtitle start="6.100" duration="4.900">
<text style="NarratorSpeaking">This is a demo of<br/>The Core Media Player<br/>subtitle format</text>
<subtitle start="00:00:11.000" stop="00:00:15.000">
<text style="NarratorSpeaking">What can be done ?</text>

The above sample is the "official" sample included with the specs, stripped down to make a suitable "hello world". For comparison, I've re-created the script in ASS:
[Script Info]
ScriptType: v4.00+
PlayResX: 640
PlayResY: 480

[V4+ Styles]
Style: NarratorSpeaking,Arial,20,&H00EEEEFF,&H000000FF,&H004444FF,&H00000000,0,-1,0,0,100,100,0,0,1,2,0,2,10,10,10,0

Dialogue: 0,0:00:06.10,0:00:11.00,NarratorSpeaking,,0000,0000,0000,,This is a demo of\NThe Core Media Player\Nsubtitle format
Dialogue: 0,0:00:11.00,0:00:15.00,NarratorSpeaking,,0000,0000,0000,,What can be done ?
Note: I removed the "Format:" lines from the above file. This is because, to the best of my knowledge, Sabbu is the only program that actually cares about those lines. Neither VSFilter nor Aegisub care if it's there or not, and both will, in fact, ignore it.

For further comparison, this is what the same script would look like in the current draft of AS5:
ScriptType: AS5
Resolution: 640x480

Style: NarratorSpeaking,,\i1\1c#FFEEEE\3c#FF4444

Line: 0:00:06.10,0:00:11.00,NarratorSpeaking,,This is a demo of\NThe Core Media Player\Nsubtitle format
Line: 0:00:11.00,0:00:15.00,NarratorSpeaking,,What can be done ?
The first thing that we can notice there is that ASS is a much more "compact" format, and USF is more "readable" in the sense that you'll easily know what each thing does if you aren't familiar with the format - unless you are very familiar with the ASS format, the "Style" line should be incomprehensible. ASS is also more "horizontal" - that is, unless you cram things into the same line in USF, ASS will take less lines but those lines will be longer.

Here's the important point: USF is NOT designed to be written by hand. It's just too much effort to write all of that, and if you forget to close some tag somewhere, you'll break the entire file, which isn't an issue in an ASS-like format. And this is exactly where the problem is: there is no good editor that supports USF!

Lately, there has been a trend for XML-based subtitle formats. This is probably because XML is relatively easy to parse by a machine, and also because of the "buzz" associated with XML. But let's face it: subtitles are not best modeled by XML. The ASS format is a strange hybrid of an INI file, a CSV list, and TeX, and that works astonishingly well - that's why we have decided to base AS5 on the same combination, although that is a subject for another post.

So here's the situation that USF faced: there was no real editor that could deal with it and nobody wants to write or maintain USF files by hand. Because of that, nobody actually uses USF, so there is no renderer that accepts it. Finally, USF offers very few real benefits over ASS, feature-wise. All in all, it just wasn't interesting to support it, and it faded into oblivion.

But here's an idea: Athenasub (the library that will be the backend of Aegisub 3.x series) will be completely format-agnostic. That would make it feasible to make Aegisub fully support USF, even its fanciest features, except that there is no renderer to display it. Should we bother? Is there still any interest in this format? At the moment, I have little interest in attempting to resurrect it (especially since we have our own plans with AS5), but if there is popular demand for it, I might reconsider. Last time I checked, not even the Matroska team seemed to care much for it anymore.

AS5. USF. And let's not forget Gabest's SSF. Do any of those formats have a future in the community? Or will fansubbers linger to ASS until the rest of their days?

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  1. How about bribing jfs to forget about VSFilter and hack ASA instead?

  2. The problem with asa is that it's barely functional, and it's written in C. I don't know about jfs, but I don't want to contribute to a project written in C.

  3. What does AS5 bring to the table that isn't there for ASS? I'd read the spec, but the spec seems to be missing. I've been involved trying to make sure that the OS-X fork of XBMC gets proper ASS support (it has, as well as the linux version), but that's all based on libass - same for the mplayer ASS implementation. Will you be adding AS5 support to libass as well?

  4. AS5 adds new functionality and tags (such as arbitrary distortions, gradients, blur, inherited styles, etc). It will most likely never be supported by libass. We have plans to make our own renderer.

  5. I dunno about you guys, but imho, I think that if you were to take the first step by supporting USF, then that would inspire others to complete projects such as making a fully-functional renderer for it. I highly doubt you would make it top-priority, but in between bug-fixing and implementing more and more new features, it could be done. I'd like to see it done myself, so that's 1 vote so far. Whatever. Like I said, it's all your decision to make. Just call me curious. I wanna see the real differences between the formats and if USF could really be the future of subbing, compared with AS5, and SSF. =p

  6. Firstly subtitles are not supposed to be hand edited, otherwise whta would be the idea of your program?
    Secondly xml format is much simpler to maintain and build upon, than the oceans of text subtitle scripts that exists nowadays.

  7. USF adds unneeded complexity, making it not just harder to hand-edit, but also adds several requirements to any editing GUI, many which could detract horribly from usability.

  8. I find little information about this USF format. That alone makes me hesitant to use it or expect any support for it in the long run. Virtually every site link I found takes me to either a 404 error page or a domain squatter site. What links do work are to sites that give a brief description with links that don't work. From the various subtitle formats I have tested (QuickTime Text, SRT, STL, ASS) I like ASS the best. I get the most control. QT text looks good, but its implentation leaves a lot to be desired. For something QT native, QT text rendering is extremely picky and haphazard. I have gotten the best results with a lot less work with ASS. I downloaded and reviewed the AS5 and have to say I like it alot. It has two things that put it ahead of ASS, more control and simpler formatting.

  9. AS5's gibberish style format makes it nearly uneditable by anything but your "monstersub" thing. You even could make it binary. With ass one should only carefully locate those primary color, vmargin, bold style, border width and shadow width, and figure out whether rgba sequence direct or reverse. It was not ideal, but AS5 is worse. I don't think, abandoning ASS style syntax is a good idea, since one tipically will use all text attributes for root styles to get what one wants instead of leaving it to defaults(?)

    As to USF, I agree subs don't require hierarchical structure, and the only benefit from XML format is its self-documenting feature. When writing ass parser, ReadLine made work for me. USF is obviously a bit verbose even for xml: there is no need for "styles", "subtitles", "fontstyle" and "text" tags... what are they for?

    You did wrong thing removing the "Format:" lines.

  10. And it's not that hard to edit xml. And if you make mistake, it can be easily identified by any xml engine. One can easily break ass too, but I'm not sure if parser will complain about errors and the bug will live in peace.

  11. The USF specs are now hosted by TitleVision:

  12. My overriding priority is to be able to deliver subs in a text format that my clients can import into the likes of Final Cut Pro etc., while moving through Word & SRT as those are the most common to my suppliers'/translators' platforms.

    Invariably, this means .doc > .txt > .srt > ass, giving me some very happy subs... but getting from there to .xml is the big hurdle.

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  76. I seen a lot of complaints about the hyperdrive kill. When I first saw the movie I had the same thoughts that this breaks the universe since it was so powerful. However, that is only true if this method of attack is never referenced again.

    History is full of "huh, I guess that actually is a good idea" moments. Especially military history. Wedge formation, shield walls, feigned retreats are all tactics that today we think are obvious, but took centuries of practice before they became the norm. And with Coach factory outlet website the hyperdrive kill, you have a few things working in the non universe breaking meta:

    Typically in the past if you could power up your hyperdrive you would just run away. We seen it before in the Star Wars universe. Different with TLJ is the First Order can track you through hyperspace. So, now instead of the default "runaway" option that has always been used before someone decided to investigate a new tactic. As with most movie plot holes that rely on "the protagonist should know all", I feel like this gets the pass. I mean, nothing in the Star Wars universe has led us to expect a different outcome when two entities collide through hyperspace.

    All the next movie has to do is have a throwaway line about the new shield emitters being able to deflect ships at hyperspeed. The plot hole is closed pretty nicely. I fully expect this line to happen in Episode 9 and all will be forgiven.

    If I were in the design room I would have made the attack less powerful. Destroying one ship makes sense. Even leaving a cartoonish Capitol Ship Shaped Hole would have made it less overpowered. But as it is I still think it fits into the continuity without breaking anything once again as long as they have technology address ways to prevent this attack in the future.

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    I understand that line of thought. As mentioned, I came to terms with it because of how much of a fan of history I am and how these kinds of events aren that uncommon. While thousands of years is obviously an enormous amount of time, and one that has no precedent in our real world history, I can still reason that the idea of weaponizing space travel hasn been consistently tested. There still plenty of in cannon ways that this can be rectified (as other posters have hinted at) and I think longterm this will be seen as less of an issue.

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